Northern NHS EstatesTraining Advisory Group

Estates:-

Introduction Members News Past Events

Facilities Hotel Services

“THE MODERNISATION OF THE ESTATES DEPARTMENT”

Monday, 22nd November 2004,
Wrightington Conference Centre

OPEN DISCUSSION / QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
WHAT ARE THE CONCERNS?
AND OBSERVATIONS ON THE SPEAKERS PRESENTATIONS.

Panel:

* Howard Jackson, Chairman of the Estates Training Advisory Group
* David Stanbury, Member of the Estates Training Advisory Group
* George Cresswell, Aintree Hospitals NHS Trust
* Chris Holme, NHS Estates,
* Nigel Rowley, NHSU
* Dr Chris Jude, Head of Widening Participation, NHSU, Sheffield
* Ian Walker, JTL
* Ronnie Sinclair UCATT Regional Officer

Howard and David introduced the session and provided background on the reason for the day’s conference and summarized the work currently being carried out by the North West Joint Working Steering Group regarding the enabling agreement for Maintenance Staff.

Howard advised that some members of the J.W.S. Group - from:

Blackpool Fylde and Wyre Hospitals NHS Trust,
Lancashire Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust,
East Lancashire Hospitals NHS Trust,
Morecambe Bay Hospitals NHS Trust

were present for the discussion.

Audience – Various questions were asked relating to AFC / Job Descriptions and Training

George Cresswell – “When we started looking at Job Descriptions 18 months ago, there was very little information. However, there is now a great deal available.” He referred to the Agenda for Change website, etc.

“As regards JOB MATCHING, each individual Trust will have to assess what their own individual tradesmen do when preparing their job escription to ensure matching is accurate.” He advised that training funds were available at Aintree, as the Workforce Development Confederation had provided an initial £25,000 towards the total cost. It was thought this would not be mirrored across other trusts.

Nigel Rowley – “It is up to individual Trusts to put forward to their local Workforce Development Confederation, their own particular training requirements and to investigate what funds can be “tapped into”.
Depending upon areas, there are different “pots” and different funding streams available. It is also up to managers to examine the opportunities available for inputting into their workforce strategies.”

Ian Walker (JTL) – “ JTL are a registered charity and can tap into European Social Funding. There is a dedicated person to source funding. Mel Jenkinson, Project Manager (Lancashire Teaching Hospitals) has been employed to act collectively across the SHA and is funded by them to develop jointly with the Trusts and JTL the training requirements for the Trusts and the examine any funding that would be available.”

Chris Simms – Asked the audience to “communicate with their Human Resource Departments and work with them on the initiative.”

Dr Chris Jude – “Act collectively. There is no point in re-inventing the wheel. You are stronger if you act together”.

George – “You need the full support of the HR Department and then the Training Department to help you get at the money for training.”

Nigel – “There is a pot of money around for “Working Differently”. If you have contractors working for you, get them on board. Look at funding for apprenticeship schemes.”

Audience - Have the revised job descriptions which depict the actual work being carried out by maintenance staff highlighted job/skills deficiencies?

George – The Job Descriptions now truly reflect the work and skills that we are already utilising which are different from the original Whitley Council skills/JD’s.

Enabling Agreement – The Job Description matches the tasks they undertake now. After the staff have been banded, we will then give them the opportunity to progress, taking up to five years to reach a higher band. After staff have been banded we will be reviewing the job descriptions. It is KEY for career pathways to be made available for all maintenance staff.

George – 30% of my staff wanted to stay as they were. They didn’t want to go down the line of multi-skilling.

Audience - We intend to upskill estate organisations within trusts and take on apprentices which is something we should have done previously. If the Knowledge and Skills Framework works well, this should contribute to the success of the exercise. It is very important that we undertake this work for the good of our workforce and for the organisation.

Ronnie – “The apprenticeship scheme is the BEST method of planning for the workforce of the future. Let us get back to basic apprentice / core training. We are progressing very well in the North West with the apprentice schemes and we need to build on this success by working with JTL. I am very optimistic for the future.”

Audience - Years ago outside bodies used to support the apprenticeship scheme (for example, the Construction Skills Agency). We need to get all the parties together and see how we can “marry” all the factions together.

Chris – The North East are using a fallout from the old Regional Authorities. Looking at “best practise” and using a “partner” (JTL). They have operated a successful apprenticeship scheme for years “There are always people who wait until others have done the work and then learn from them, however trusts need to work together on the apprenticeship initiative and the four trusts in the North West intend to do so.”

Audience - We need to be assured that what we develop will still be in place 5 – 10 years down the line. We need to ensure that the estates workforce strategy at a trust is suitable for the apprenticeship initiative.

Chris – One need to insure that whatever strategy you adopt is sustainable. In the North East, referred to by Chris, there are 40 – 50 apprentices. One person manages the apprentices across 12 Trusts, these apprentices will move across Trusts to get different experiences.

Howard – On the subject of attracting, developing and retaining apprentices once they have qualified. There is an opportunity for the four trusts of the North West to work together in recruiting, training and then once trained giving the qualified staff the opportunity to work across the four trusts gaining further skills and experience learnt from each trust. One should forget the old system of training apprentices and then advising the newly qualified tradesmen that there are no jobs available. We need to have succession planning in place. One needs to think of the NHS as a single employer and not just one trust to ensure we retain the staff we have developed within the NHS. As regards to qualified staff and upskilling we have the opportunity of progressing staff down a training path, a training path they can see, however they may not all want to go down the same path.

Audience – (Question to George). How did you manage Job Matching?

George – “Badly! Initially it wasn’t handled very well. You need to prepare thoroughly.”

Audience – “Top table” need to understand the risk of the “ageing workforce”.

Audience – Very conscious that we have an ageing workforce. This is not just an issue with “hard fm” or indeed with the NHS In the North East, the average age for “soft fm” is 49.9 and with one of the contractors, it is 59. We have 11 sites plus a considerable number of health centres. 3 PFI’s with different contractors and we are on our third merger. By necessity, we are crossing boundaries between soft and hard fm. Currently, developing a “handyman role”.

Chris Holme – Our profiles are always changing. It is important that you train and deliver to the service need of the workforce you have.

Chris Simms – Hotel Services can be much more customer-focused than the Estates departments and one needs to learn from each other. “Why don’t we develop a porter who has some maintenance tasks within their role? We need to think "out of the box and develop initiates and staff accordingly.”

George – We have introduced a Ward Maintenance Support Worker. 5 look after 3 or 4 wards and liaise directly with the Ward Housekeeper. We keep a record of tasks completed (mainly for legal reasons). System is working extremely well.

Nigel – “OPPORTUNITY”. We currently have a unique opportunity to make a difference. This is an exciting time; consider we have a blank piece of paper. We must “think outside the box”. We need tolook at the specialist and multi- skill requirements and establish the skills gap and also develop opportunities for our staff.

Chris – There is now an NVQ2 in Building Maintenance, which we are developing. This is a 12-month training initiative, which on completion will provide the person with a qualification.

Ronnie – There is a shortage of skilled labour throughout the industry. At the present time, “outside” the NHS tradesmen get £15.00 per hour. In the NHS tradesmen get nothing like that hourly rate. We need to pay a realistic rate to recruit and retain our staff. Also our apprentices are our managers of the future.

Audience – Housing Agencies are after the same craftsmen as us. We should be talking to them about recruitment and retention of staff.

Audience – Has there been inconsistencies in the matching panels?

George – If you do not agree with the panel, you can have a review within the next three months.

George – I wrote to all my staff to determine if they were in agreement with their job descriptions, which they signed up to. The Job Descriptions then went to the matching panels prior to the person going before the panel.

PARTNERSHIP WORKING

Audience – What is your definition of partnership working?

George – Getting all three sides together – Staff, Union and Management. Debating every step forward, (Agenda for Change and multi-skilling.)

Partnership working – Professional organisations, groups (Training Advisory Groups, HEFMA, etc) Partnership is working locally but we need to recognise regional and national organisations too.

Chris – We need to get together and understand what everyone wants. If we can link anything that anyone does back to the patient, we will have a better case for funding.

MANAGERS OF THE FUTURE

Chris – We do not train people for “Management”. There is no formal training at all, only “on the job” training 92% of our apprentices qualify but only 20% go on to be Managers. There is no structured training route to progress tradesmen to be managers.

Audience – There is lots of information on the Modernisation Agency Website. Information on Technical Training, Degree Programmes but nothing for Management Training. The NHSU however do offer advice on Management Training.

IN CONCLUSION

Howard thanked everyone, including the speakers, for attending the day’s workshop and contributing to its success. The day had been received well by those in attendance, useful and informative information had been gleamed from across the audience and speakers. Howard also reminded delegates to complete the evaluation forms in their packs. And advised delegates of the future TRAINING ADVISORY GROUP events for 2005.